WEBVTT

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hey guys i am caleb giddings from

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tours usa and you are watching or

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listening to another episode of gun day

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brunch brought to you by taurus usa

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and guns dot com a tourist usa

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we make affordable and reliable firearms and

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at guns dot com you can buy

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them as well as consume a lot

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of really good

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content around firearms education and a lot

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of other fun stuff and speaking of

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good content you'll notice we don't have

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keith with us today instead my guess

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is my guest is professor david ina

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what i just realized i dunno how

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to say your last name is it

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your work is yamane okay so in

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my head i was saying it right

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so

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so i you know i could say

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it like a yankee and be like

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oh he got a david domain out

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here and lindo we have my friend

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and wake forest professor david yamani so

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david why don't you tell the people

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a little bit about your background you

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know what you do and just a

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little bit of how you and we'll

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talk about the book a promise but

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kind of how you got to where

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where you are yeah well as you

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said i'm a professor of sociology at

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wake forest university in winston salem north

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carolina not to be confused with the

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lake forest university which is outside of

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chicago grew up in the san francisco

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bay area and i think probably the

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most atypical thing about myself cause i

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am just a sort

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the typical liberal professor and a lot

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of ways is that for forty two

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years of my life i was completely

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outside of guns and gun culture never

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saw touched her fired a gun and

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then from age forty two to now

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which is another thirteen years i've been

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sort of deeply involved in being a

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gun owner trying to mature as a

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gun owner and also studying guns and

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gun culture professionally as a sociologist so

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i think that's probably why i'm here

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fair enough so for unity to kind

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of continue that talk to me about

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the book like obviously you know i

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it represents the culmination of a lot

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of work that you've put into this

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space but what is it you know

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and can kind of give me a

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run through of that of the work

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of the goal of the book and

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kind of what it's about for people

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who do

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now now now well as you know

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when i started the the journey i

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i was getting interested in guns you

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know in my individual life and i

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became a gun owner and yet as

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i said tried to become a better

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gun owner over time but i also

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was doing this research i began thinking

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i was just going to do a

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very simple

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discrete study of why do people carry

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concealed handguns but as i started investigating

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that started trying to understand what other

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people had said about that i realized

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that that was just part of a

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much bigger thing which i took to

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calling gun culture two point oh stealing

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the phrase from michael bayne and so

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so it just kept getting bigger and

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bigger but i still you know was

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thinking i'm just going to write in

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an academic book that's going to be

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published by university press and read by

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you know fifty people and going to

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two hundred university libraries which is what

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i've done my whole career he also

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published many books before that in the

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in the sociology of religion but at

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some point area

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allies will actually maybe have a story

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to tell that would be of more

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general interest you know that really put

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my own story kind of front and

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center and then brought in my sociological

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observations to supplement my story rather than

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sort of vice versa which would be

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more more academically common

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so the book really then you know

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represents everything i understand not everything a

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lot of what i understand about guns

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as a sociologist but really tells the

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mind that understanding from my individual first

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person perspective so it's really it really

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is my journey

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into american gun culture

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awesome i have i have got a

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bunch of things that i want to

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ask you about that and i'm going

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to do them in no particular order

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basically the order to kinda my head

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you name it and gun culture two

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point oh and that's a phrase that

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we've been using for you know some

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time now to the point that i

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wonder do you think that we have

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actually moved past that into

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almost a three point o or two

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point five or ten a portrait at

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metaphor a little bit but like the

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next iteration of what american gun culture

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looks like now let me preface my

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comment by saying that one of the

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downsides of using this is a i

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think of it as being kind of

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a heuristic device a conceptual here

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mystic device to help us organize what's

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really just a completely messy and complex

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reality when it simplifies that reality and

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in the sense that we can say

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hey guns have always been a part

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of the american experience gun culture per

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se kind of emerges in the nineteenth

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century where we see people starting to

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engage in organized as

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activities around no hunting and recreational shooting

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and maybe a little bit later to

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mask collecting what we would call kind

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of gun culture one point no activities

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but then you know decisively shifting you

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know beginning in the sixties but you

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know and in the decades following to

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a self defense orientation right and begin

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that self defense orientation was always part

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of guns and gun culture but it

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really becomes the center of gun culture

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at some point i'd say around twenty

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tap so that's the the basic idea

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of this shift from gun culture one

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point o to two point oh but

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it doesn't say no people recreationally shoot

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still people still hunt people collect you

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know there's all of this

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stuff happening so i don't know i

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think sometimes people misunderstand you say well

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you know i do a lot of

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things with my guns and so that's

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that's a preface to answering your question

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which is that i don't really know

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where gun culture is going because i

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have a hard enough time just understanding

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what's happening yesterday and today and i

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have no

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idea what's going to happen tomorrow but

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you know i think that for there

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to be a true gun culture three

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point o there would have to emerge

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something that then becomes the central thing

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that people do with guns and i

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think a more likely

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sort of development is that there's going

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to be more of a kind of

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fragmentation or maybe a differentiation so you

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know they'll be your defensive gun owners

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they'll be your tactical defense of gun

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owners though be your precision rifle shooters

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they'll be your sport shooters or hunters

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with some overlap but maybe not complete

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overlap and possibly even

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in

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a dimension of gun culture where people

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aren't even necessarily gun users but they

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just believe in guns as part of

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their rights and then it becomes tied

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into more of a political project so

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if i had to guess if there

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was to be a gun culture three

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point o would be around the politics

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of guns

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so or you know if i wanted

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to make i i dunno it'd be

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a controversial statement but if i wanted

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to say something that could be you

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know easily clipped into a sound bite

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for reals later which is exactly what

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i'm doing and i you know you

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could almost take from that that the

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defining characteristic of a gun culture three

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point o if such a thing were

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to exist would be

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be it's fractured nature and not the

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absolutes of nasa presence of the internet

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and everyone's easy ability to find other

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people who like the exact same thing

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as them right like cause i remember

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you know in the early days and

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i was getting started you had to

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and i you know as someone who

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is you know

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very focused on competition shooting i had

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to go look for other competition shooters

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i had to go out and find

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them and there was a little bit

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of work involved in that and now

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you know if you are someone who

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only shoots you know six five creedmoor

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and prs rifle complications and that's all

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you care about

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but you can find a hundred other

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people who that's also all day care

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about oh yeah nina may be that

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we don't really have a you know

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a core gun culture going forward and

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we just have a bunch of lifestyle

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enclaves so i think there there's definitely

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something to that and and i will

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also try to reduce my risk

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dances to youtube shorts length from my

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typical new yorker long form essay that's

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what i have a you know that's

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what we edit these things for so

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you know it's important that but you

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know it is funny like i think

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also the the fractured attention span is

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is definitely a thing that affects you

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know there's lots of smart people

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talking about it i'm not one of

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those people but you know i did

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it it's affected gun culture and the

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perception of it as well where we

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have gone in a transition from how

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information is disseminated through you know gun

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culture two point oh it was blogs

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and forums and a lot of like

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long format youtube videos which by the

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way they use

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youtube definition of a long format video

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is anything over twelve minutes long that's

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long that's a long format video and

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but you know and now you see

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a lot of instagram content real very

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short form content with people trying to

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bang as much information as possible or

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no information whatsoever into

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two thirty sixty ninety seconds and i

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think that's there's a lot of

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have changed it's happened just in my

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time in the in the firearms in

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the firearms industry that gives me a

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little bit of whiplash from time to

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time so i can't imagine what it

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must look like to an outsider who

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you know this isn't because the gun

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industry is not your job you're a

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teacher at a college that your actual

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job job

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then i you know i do like

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sometimes i i think about how curated

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my view of gun culture actually is

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because there's a ton of content out

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there that i just really don't pay

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any attention to and maybe when i

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was first starting that made more sense

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you know like i don't there's nothing

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in my book about instagram in

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influencer's you know i don't write about

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you know people wearing nods and you

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know this kind of thing and they

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00:10:04.590 --> 00:10:06.390
know that's a reality of gun culture

281
00:10:06.390 --> 00:10:08.640
out there just not been a part

282
00:10:08.640 --> 00:10:11.310
of the reality that i've been examining

283
00:10:11.310 --> 00:10:13.470
closely and so now there's a bit

284
00:10:13.470 --> 00:10:14.972
of a division of labor like i'll

285
00:10:14.972 --> 00:10:16.110
i'll look at what i can look

286
00:10:16.110 --> 00:10:17.309
at and let somebody else look at

287
00:10:17.309 --> 00:10:18.210
something else but

288
00:10:19.000 --> 00:10:21.580
i think you're back to the two

289
00:10:21.580 --> 00:10:23.050
point oh idea people were talking about

290
00:10:23.050 --> 00:10:24.310
gun culture three point o and i

291
00:10:24.310 --> 00:10:26.380
was like that's not a reality until

292
00:10:26.380 --> 00:10:28.150
i published my gun culture two point

293
00:10:28.150 --> 00:10:29.380
oh book and then you guys can

294
00:10:29.380 --> 00:10:31.840
talk about whatever you want perfect alright

295
00:10:31.840 --> 00:10:32.409
you heard it here

296
00:10:33.520 --> 00:10:35.440
until the book is out then we

297
00:10:35.440 --> 00:10:37.148
can start talking about the transition to

298
00:10:37.150 --> 00:10:38.650
gun culture theory point out i'm here

299
00:10:38.650 --> 00:10:39.670
for it i love it

300
00:10:40.780 --> 00:10:41.860
the other thing that i wanted to

301
00:10:41.860 --> 00:10:43.390
bring up is you know you talked

302
00:10:43.390 --> 00:10:49.180
about your entry into firearms enthusiasm into

303
00:10:49.180 --> 00:10:51.040
this space and i know that there's

304
00:10:51.040 --> 00:10:52.120
a kind of a common thread that

305
00:10:52.120 --> 00:10:53.380
we have in there because part of

306
00:10:53.380 --> 00:10:55.150
that nectar for you was top shop

307
00:10:55.150 --> 00:10:58.630
right now yeah you know it's funny

308
00:10:58.630 --> 00:11:00.514
because i know for

309
00:11:00.520 --> 00:11:01.600
a lot of people this is just

310
00:11:01.600 --> 00:11:03.520
some dumb tv show that ran for

311
00:11:03.520 --> 00:11:05.140
a few years on the history channel

312
00:11:05.140 --> 00:11:06.580
or you know even if you live

313
00:11:06.580 --> 00:11:09.670
to be exact five is zat include

314
00:11:09.670 --> 00:11:11.740
the all star season i do yeah

315
00:11:11.740 --> 00:11:13.510
absolutely that include yeah fyi he had

316
00:11:13.510 --> 00:11:16.780
five seasons of the shell now i

317
00:11:16.930 --> 00:11:18.700
sort of yeah you know and it's

318
00:11:18.700 --> 00:11:19.960
easy just to think of that just

319
00:11:19.960 --> 00:11:20.680
entertainment or what

320
00:11:20.680 --> 00:11:22.750
never but i re distinctively remember the

321
00:11:22.750 --> 00:11:24.400
first time i ever saw top shot

322
00:11:24.400 --> 00:11:26.380
i was sitting in a hotel room

323
00:11:26.380 --> 00:11:27.760
in georgia with my son who was

324
00:11:27.760 --> 00:11:29.050
at a tennis tournament and it was

325
00:11:29.050 --> 00:11:31.630
a roulette rain delay and i just

326
00:11:31.630 --> 00:11:33.220
started flipping through the channels i didn't

327
00:11:33.220 --> 00:11:34.960
have cable at home at the time

328
00:11:34.960 --> 00:11:36.010
and so i was like what's on

329
00:11:36.100 --> 00:11:38.350
cable tv these days and i saw

330
00:11:38.350 --> 00:11:40.827
colby donaldson who i recognized from having

331
00:11:40.840 --> 00:11:43.690
watch survivor one season and i stopped

332
00:11:43.690 --> 00:11:46.030
like what's colby donaldson doing and then

333
00:11:46.030 --> 00:11:47.920
i was introduced to this whole world

334
00:11:47.920 --> 00:11:49.930
of firearms that i knew absolutely nothing

335
00:11:49.930 --> 00:11:53.230
about and you know not just people

336
00:11:53.230 --> 00:11:55.270
killing themselves or somebody else or hurting

337
00:11:55.270 --> 00:11:57.370
someone but i remember the trick shot

338
00:11:57.370 --> 00:11:59.860
showdown in season one shooting over the

339
00:11:59.860 --> 00:12:01.000
shoulder annie oakley said

340
00:12:01.000 --> 00:12:03.400
style chris moreno driving nails with a

341
00:12:03.850 --> 00:12:07.935
rickety nineteenth century revolver in it and

342
00:12:08.020 --> 00:12:09.400
i didn't just go like now i

343
00:12:09.400 --> 00:12:11.380
have to get guns but it planted

344
00:12:11.380 --> 00:12:14.110
a seed in me of understanding like

345
00:12:14.110 --> 00:12:15.820
well you know that was pretty cool

346
00:12:15.820 --> 00:12:17.680
these people are really good at doing

347
00:12:17.680 --> 00:12:21.160
that and it sort of highlighted why

348
00:12:21.160 --> 00:12:22.150
what i would come to call the

349
00:12:22.150 --> 00:12:24.220
normality of guns and gun owners and

350
00:12:24.220 --> 00:12:26.290
that really came to to be an

351
00:12:26.290 --> 00:12:28.090
important moment in my life

352
00:12:29.440 --> 00:12:31.780
yeah it's funny because i think you

353
00:12:31.780 --> 00:12:33.250
know i i i would say that

354
00:12:33.250 --> 00:12:35.470
i have a complicated relationship with top

355
00:12:35.470 --> 00:12:37.540
shot although not nearly as much as

356
00:12:37.540 --> 00:12:40.811
it used to be i i i

357
00:12:40.863 --> 00:12:43.480
been told by many people that talk

358
00:12:43.480 --> 00:12:47.020
shop was their gateway drug for either

359
00:12:47.020 --> 00:12:49.270
their entrance into you know firearms

360
00:12:49.510 --> 00:12:51.100
the aasm or someone that they cared

361
00:12:51.100 --> 00:12:52.270
about where you know you've got a

362
00:12:52.270 --> 00:12:55.030
lot of instances where you would have

363
00:12:55.030 --> 00:12:56.860
a parent or a partner in a

364
00:12:56.860 --> 00:12:59.440
relationship be like hey let's watch this

365
00:12:59.440 --> 00:13:02.530
thing together it's basically survivor with guns

366
00:13:02.830 --> 00:13:04.780
and they would walk and you know

367
00:13:04.780 --> 00:13:06.070
the other person's logic like oh i

368
00:13:06.070 --> 00:13:08.620
guess guns are for more than just

369
00:13:09.100 --> 00:13:09.550
my

370
00:13:09.643 --> 00:13:11.680
perception of the gangs that has been

371
00:13:12.040 --> 00:13:13.930
you know permeated by mass me are

372
00:13:13.930 --> 00:13:17.200
permitted that was the wrong word perpetuated

373
00:13:17.200 --> 00:13:18.310
by mass media

374
00:13:20.110 --> 00:13:22.600
and the and again i think that

375
00:13:22.600 --> 00:13:24.520
this is something that when i look

376
00:13:24.520 --> 00:13:27.700
at the mainstream television today there really

377
00:13:27.700 --> 00:13:30.130
isn't anything on that that represents that

378
00:13:30.130 --> 00:13:32.830
aspect of guns and gun culture and

379
00:13:32.830 --> 00:13:34.450
i don't know all the reasons why

380
00:13:34.900 --> 00:13:36.370
top shot was taken off the air

381
00:13:36.370 --> 00:13:38.110
maybe it didn't get pulled the ratings

382
00:13:38.110 --> 00:13:39.460
it needed to maybe there was some

383
00:13:39.460 --> 00:13:39.640
does

384
00:13:39.670 --> 00:13:41.590
comfort with the portrayal of guy maybe

385
00:13:41.590 --> 00:13:42.910
you know something more about that than

386
00:13:42.910 --> 00:13:44.920
i do i i have there is

387
00:13:44.920 --> 00:13:47.860
some top shot t so topshop got

388
00:13:47.890 --> 00:13:49.810
very good ratings especially for its time

389
00:13:49.810 --> 00:13:53.560
slot and what killed top shot was

390
00:13:53.590 --> 00:13:56.170
a change in leadership at history channel

391
00:13:56.500 --> 00:13:58.600
it was bought by i want to

392
00:13:58.600 --> 00:13:59.800
say was that an

393
00:13:59.800 --> 00:14:02.380
m c when in one of that

394
00:14:02.560 --> 00:14:03.820
so cause i was back in the

395
00:14:03.910 --> 00:14:06.040
twenties fourteen fifteen ish when a lot

396
00:14:06.040 --> 00:14:08.260
of the cable channels were getting bought

397
00:14:08.260 --> 00:14:10.480
by big conglomerates and you know all

398
00:14:10.480 --> 00:14:12.370
of a sudden travel channel and food

399
00:14:12.370 --> 00:14:14.290
network and all each other channels were

400
00:14:14.290 --> 00:14:16.630
now owned by one big company and

401
00:14:16.630 --> 00:14:18.850
that happened the history channel and one

402
00:14:18.850 --> 00:14:19.960
of their edicts was bay

403
00:14:19.960 --> 00:14:22.420
basically no more gun shells which the

404
00:14:22.435 --> 00:14:25.600
top shot went away the absolutely wonderful

405
00:14:25.750 --> 00:14:28.150
mail call with arley army went away

406
00:14:28.150 --> 00:14:29.440
as a result of that as well

407
00:14:29.440 --> 00:14:30.610
and that was that was one of

408
00:14:30.610 --> 00:14:32.770
my favorite shows because earlier he was

409
00:14:32.770 --> 00:14:35.590
such a like it was very silly

410
00:14:35.590 --> 00:14:37.240
entertainment stuff but he was such a

411
00:14:37.240 --> 00:14:39.190
fun character to watch because you sure

412
00:14:39.190 --> 00:14:40.120
have realized that he was

413
00:14:40.180 --> 00:14:42.730
always playing orally or me no matter

414
00:14:42.730 --> 00:14:43.180
what

415
00:14:44.710 --> 00:14:46.870
and yes that was that was that

416
00:14:46.870 --> 00:14:48.340
was what killed top shot and i

417
00:14:48.340 --> 00:14:48.670
think

418
00:14:49.810 --> 00:14:52.630
and it was also a very unique

419
00:14:52.900 --> 00:14:56.410
product of it's time you couldn't do

420
00:14:56.920 --> 00:14:59.410
pop shot today in a way that

421
00:14:59.410 --> 00:15:01.600
would still be meaningful because of all

422
00:15:01.600 --> 00:15:03.490
of the media that's out there now

423
00:15:04.000 --> 00:15:05.320
and also i don't think you could

424
00:15:05.320 --> 00:15:06.880
get it you know and believe me

425
00:15:06.970 --> 00:15:09.550
they've tried a lot of the outdoor

426
00:15:09.550 --> 00:15:09.880
network

427
00:15:09.880 --> 00:15:11.620
works you know your your sportsmen and

428
00:15:11.620 --> 00:15:13.090
outdoor channels have tried to kind of

429
00:15:13.090 --> 00:15:14.710
do their own spin on top shot

430
00:15:15.310 --> 00:15:17.170
and it never works quite as well

431
00:15:17.440 --> 00:15:19.540
and i think the reason for that

432
00:15:19.570 --> 00:15:22.210
is what made top shot work well

433
00:15:22.570 --> 00:15:26.050
was that the contestants knew a lot

434
00:15:26.050 --> 00:15:29.140
about shooting guns and the producers and

435
00:15:29.140 --> 00:15:30.040
that and this

436
00:15:30.040 --> 00:15:32.410
studio knew alot about making good tp

437
00:15:33.280 --> 00:15:37.510
and when you had that balance you

438
00:15:37.510 --> 00:15:39.250
get a product that is i mean

439
00:15:39.370 --> 00:15:40.660
if you go to i think they

440
00:15:40.660 --> 00:15:42.460
are on history channel still but if

441
00:15:42.520 --> 00:15:43.960
if people were listening this you never

442
00:15:43.960 --> 00:15:45.104
watched them and they're still out there

443
00:15:45.104 --> 00:15:47.080
on history or whatever go watch them

444
00:15:47.110 --> 00:15:50.200
they're a phenomenally watchable product even

445
00:15:50.200 --> 00:15:50.410
in

446
00:15:51.760 --> 00:15:55.810
fourteen years later the product yeah the

447
00:15:55.810 --> 00:15:57.580
end product is good in it's entertaining

448
00:15:57.580 --> 00:15:59.920
and it's watchable but unethical

449
00:16:01.390 --> 00:16:02.410
oh we're done with topshop

450
00:16:03.640 --> 00:16:05.650
imagined etc like i used to watch

451
00:16:05.650 --> 00:16:08.770
a hell's kitchen with gordon ramsay you

452
00:16:08.770 --> 00:16:09.940
know early on it was like a

453
00:16:09.940 --> 00:16:11.860
new format it is i mean it

454
00:16:11.860 --> 00:16:13.960
was a standard kind of survivor type

455
00:16:13.960 --> 00:16:15.520
thing but in the in the kitchen

456
00:16:16.450 --> 00:16:18.340
but after you know a certain number

457
00:16:18.340 --> 00:16:19.990
of seasons and they start doing stupid

458
00:16:19.990 --> 00:16:22.240
things you know like creating certain types

459
00:16:22.240 --> 00:16:23.680
of teams or the you know they

460
00:16:23.680 --> 00:16:23.800
say

461
00:16:23.800 --> 00:16:25.480
hearted getting home cooks and so i

462
00:16:25.480 --> 00:16:28.510
can imagine you know seasons twenty of

463
00:16:28.540 --> 00:16:30.280
top shot what are they going to

464
00:16:30.280 --> 00:16:31.330
do they're just going to go pick

465
00:16:31.330 --> 00:16:33.880
random people off the street or the

466
00:16:33.940 --> 00:16:36.970
perfect professors were vs strippers or you

467
00:16:36.970 --> 00:16:39.010
know some sort of crazy setup like

468
00:16:39.010 --> 00:16:39.310
that

469
00:16:40.360 --> 00:16:42.460
a girl i dated for a while

470
00:16:42.460 --> 00:16:44.740
was really into the apprentice and so

471
00:16:44.740 --> 00:16:47.050
i probably watched like eight seasons in

472
00:16:47.050 --> 00:16:48.760
that shell and that's exactly what they

473
00:16:48.760 --> 00:16:52.420
did i remember i very distinctly remember

474
00:16:52.420 --> 00:16:54.040
a season of the apprentice where it

475
00:16:54.040 --> 00:16:58.150
was people with college degrees versus people

476
00:16:58.150 --> 00:17:00.220
without college degrees that was like the

477
00:17:00.220 --> 00:17:00.520
whole

478
00:17:00.550 --> 00:17:02.740
premise of the show is lake's hard

479
00:17:02.740 --> 00:17:05.290
work vs higher education and it was

480
00:17:05.290 --> 00:17:09.100
so frickin dub and like none of

481
00:17:09.100 --> 00:17:11.950
these are actual you know objective measures

482
00:17:11.950 --> 00:17:13.120
of how good these people will be

483
00:17:13.120 --> 00:17:15.100
doing whatever silly thing donald trump elects

484
00:17:15.124 --> 00:17:17.920
them to do this week cause it's

485
00:17:17.920 --> 00:17:19.180
not like you know you're asking like

486
00:17:19.180 --> 00:17:20.594
a cornell graduate

487
00:17:20.680 --> 00:17:22.450
a you know we they would they

488
00:17:22.459 --> 00:17:23.560
would be like alright who's going to

489
00:17:23.560 --> 00:17:25.030
figure out the most efficient way to

490
00:17:25.030 --> 00:17:26.710
sweep these ten floors like

491
00:17:27.910 --> 00:17:30.310
but anyway now we are done talking

492
00:17:30.310 --> 00:17:32.380
about reality t v guys that promise

493
00:17:33.340 --> 00:17:35.860
the ass but to get this let's

494
00:17:35.860 --> 00:17:36.820
get back to the book you know

495
00:17:36.820 --> 00:17:39.100
obviously i don't want you to give

496
00:17:39.100 --> 00:17:41.710
away all of the contents but what

497
00:17:41.710 --> 00:17:43.750
was it was your goal always to

498
00:17:43.750 --> 00:17:45.130
write a book or was descending that

499
00:17:45.130 --> 00:17:48.040
sort of like well what was this

500
00:17:48.070 --> 00:17:50.260
book itself the goal or did you

501
00:17:50.500 --> 00:17:51.550
not know you're like i'm going to

502
00:17:51.550 --> 00:17:53.140
write a book about the gun culture

503
00:17:53.530 --> 00:17:55.650
about my journey through the gun culture

504
00:17:55.660 --> 00:17:56.919
you kind of didn't know what it

505
00:17:56.919 --> 00:17:59.470
was going to look like yeah well

506
00:17:59.470 --> 00:18:01.090
yeah i gathered the in the initial

507
00:18:01.090 --> 00:18:02.560
version it with the gun the title

508
00:18:02.560 --> 00:18:04.242
was gun culture to porno and i

509
00:18:04.242 --> 00:18:05.920
have sort of marched through you know

510
00:18:06.040 --> 00:18:08.050
the history the law

511
00:18:08.200 --> 00:18:11.800
technology training insurance like just all these

512
00:18:11.800 --> 00:18:14.530
aspects of defensive gun culture and then

513
00:18:14.530 --> 00:18:16.480
when i shifted more towards neo telling

514
00:18:16.480 --> 00:18:19.330
my story then i started to think

515
00:18:19.330 --> 00:18:21.460
about what you know what would be

516
00:18:21.490 --> 00:18:23.260
and this is not easy to think

517
00:18:23.260 --> 00:18:24.460
about what what's going to be a

518
00:18:24.460 --> 00:18:26.020
book that's going to appeal to people

519
00:18:26.020 --> 00:18:28.360
who are or like lifelong gun owners

520
00:18:28.840 --> 00:18:30.550
you know who you can't tell them

521
00:18:30.550 --> 00:18:34.570
anything about go already know and also

522
00:18:34.570 --> 00:18:37.000
gun skeptics you know people who were

523
00:18:37.120 --> 00:18:38.920
who come from outside gun culture don't

524
00:18:38.920 --> 00:18:41.800
understand why guns make sense to people

525
00:18:41.800 --> 00:18:43.150
who own them and why guns are

526
00:18:43.150 --> 00:18:45.580
all terrible and then also these people

527
00:18:45.580 --> 00:18:46.690
in the middle of the gun curious

528
00:18:46.690 --> 00:18:48.520
right they're not bought in one

529
00:18:48.520 --> 00:18:50.770
one way or the other and so

530
00:18:50.770 --> 00:18:52.360
really the trick was to figure out

531
00:18:52.360 --> 00:18:54.940
what what voice could i bring to

532
00:18:55.210 --> 00:18:57.250
to bring in all of those people

533
00:18:57.250 --> 00:18:59.170
so i spent a lot of time

534
00:18:59.170 --> 00:19:03.040
thinking about it's not a pure chronological

535
00:19:03.040 --> 00:19:04.690
narrative but it does kind of start

536
00:19:04.690 --> 00:19:06.340
with here's how i became a gun

537
00:19:06.340 --> 00:19:08.680
owner right here's how i re

538
00:19:08.680 --> 00:19:11.170
realize the normality of gun ownership here's

539
00:19:11.170 --> 00:19:14.020
how i accumulated thirteen guns now here's

540
00:19:14.050 --> 00:19:16.210
my thoughts on air fifteens and then

541
00:19:16.300 --> 00:19:17.950
sort of up from there so it

542
00:19:17.950 --> 00:19:20.680
does kind of sort of use the

543
00:19:20.680 --> 00:19:22.540
idea of me maturing as a gun

544
00:19:22.540 --> 00:19:25.150
owner sort of as the guiding kind

545
00:19:25.150 --> 00:19:28.113
of narrative and so people who and

546
00:19:28.125 --> 00:19:28.720
probably

547
00:19:28.840 --> 00:19:30.370
the people who have read the book

548
00:19:30.370 --> 00:19:31.840
the most are people who are totally

549
00:19:31.840 --> 00:19:33.580
bought into guts and people i've met

550
00:19:33.790 --> 00:19:35.845
the gun gun training industry which i

551
00:19:35.845 --> 00:19:37.420
i didn't really expect cause i thought

552
00:19:37.420 --> 00:19:39.310
those people be like you can't tell

553
00:19:39.310 --> 00:19:40.780
me nothing i don't already know about

554
00:19:40.780 --> 00:19:43.840
guns and that's me meant mimicking people

555
00:19:43.840 --> 00:19:46.600
who live around me here in mocksville

556
00:19:46.600 --> 00:19:49.000
north carolina but neighbors too

557
00:19:49.090 --> 00:19:50.950
in south carolina yeah it's like it's

558
00:19:50.950 --> 00:19:53.320
like my barber you know and he'd

559
00:19:53.350 --> 00:19:54.850
love the book you know and i

560
00:19:54.850 --> 00:19:56.140
was like you been a gun owner

561
00:19:56.140 --> 00:19:57.670
your whole life you hump you have

562
00:19:57.730 --> 00:19:59.290
no defensive gun under what what do

563
00:19:59.290 --> 00:20:00.250
i have to say to you but

564
00:20:00.640 --> 00:20:03.160
you know they they like hearing the

565
00:20:03.160 --> 00:20:05.140
story of summer who doesn't come from

566
00:20:05.140 --> 00:20:07.240
that background who nonetheless kind of ends

567
00:20:07.240 --> 00:20:09.160
up in the same place they do

568
00:20:09.160 --> 00:20:10.660
do and brings a different sort of

569
00:20:10.660 --> 00:20:13.900
perspective to it the go ahead i

570
00:20:13.900 --> 00:20:15.880
think i think there is there is

571
00:20:15.880 --> 00:20:20.170
an intellectual attraction to the concept of

572
00:20:20.170 --> 00:20:22.810
someone that you would view as i

573
00:20:22.870 --> 00:20:27.460
as an outsider who embracing your values

574
00:20:27.460 --> 00:20:29.320
right you know and i you

575
00:20:29.810 --> 00:20:32.300
values very broadly there but the idea

576
00:20:32.300 --> 00:20:36.350
that you know a pardon pardon the

577
00:20:36.350 --> 00:20:39.890
phrase a liberal professor from san francisco

578
00:20:39.890 --> 00:20:42.320
who teaches at wake forest suddenly becoming

579
00:20:42.320 --> 00:20:44.660
a gun owner is a narrative that

580
00:20:44.660 --> 00:20:47.330
people who are you know more traditional

581
00:20:47.330 --> 00:20:49.340
gun owners you know lifelong gun owners

582
00:20:49.340 --> 00:20:49.910
real politik

583
00:20:49.910 --> 00:20:51.110
yle activists would look at and say

584
00:20:51.110 --> 00:20:53.330
hey this is interesting i want to

585
00:20:53.330 --> 00:20:55.820
read about this journey which i mean

586
00:20:55.820 --> 00:20:57.320
that's you know my interest in it

587
00:20:57.320 --> 00:20:59.870
as well and for me my my

588
00:20:59.870 --> 00:21:02.630
lot my interest in the book extends

589
00:21:02.630 --> 00:21:04.760
beyond that because my wife is actually

590
00:21:04.760 --> 00:21:06.830
in the target demographic that you wrote

591
00:21:06.830 --> 00:21:08.450
the book for originally she grew up

592
00:21:08.480 --> 00:21:10.070
in new york she's never one

593
00:21:10.100 --> 00:21:11.900
the gun in her entire life you

594
00:21:11.900 --> 00:21:14.420
know the this is the decision we

595
00:21:14.420 --> 00:21:15.980
are a gun owning household but they're

596
00:21:15.983 --> 00:21:18.260
not her guns or anything like that

597
00:21:18.260 --> 00:21:20.660
so for me there's that attraction to

598
00:21:20.660 --> 00:21:21.770
the book as well be like here

599
00:21:22.520 --> 00:21:24.350
don't listen just read this this person

600
00:21:24.350 --> 00:21:26.000
has way more in common with your

601
00:21:26.000 --> 00:21:28.850
background my background because my have a

602
00:21:28.850 --> 00:21:30.230
very traditional gun owner

603
00:21:30.290 --> 00:21:31.730
background my dad was a cop a

604
00:21:31.730 --> 00:21:33.950
group shooting i had a gun a

605
00:21:33.950 --> 00:21:35.570
bb gun when i was twelve a

606
00:21:35.570 --> 00:21:37.671
rifle when i was sixteen you know

607
00:21:37.671 --> 00:21:39.020
for my twenty first birthday i got

608
00:21:39.020 --> 00:21:40.820
a handgun it's like i have like

609
00:21:41.180 --> 00:21:43.550
a gun owner background

610
00:21:47.330 --> 00:21:49.340
but er so you got the book

611
00:21:49.340 --> 00:21:50.834
we have that product and you mentioned

612
00:21:50.875 --> 00:21:52.640
you know people in the training community

613
00:21:52.640 --> 00:21:55.700
and i think that's where i forget

614
00:21:55.700 --> 00:21:57.260
who it was but a prompt but

615
00:21:57.260 --> 00:21:59.210
i'm gonna say sarah hartman because she

616
00:21:59.210 --> 00:22:00.440
has been such a vector for many

617
00:22:00.440 --> 00:22:01.670
wonderful things in my life but i

618
00:22:01.670 --> 00:22:02.810
think it was her that made me

619
00:22:02.810 --> 00:22:04.520
aware of you the first time that

620
00:22:04.520 --> 00:22:04.790
i could

621
00:22:04.790 --> 00:22:07.190
could be wrong about that because it's

622
00:22:07.190 --> 00:22:09.080
been a really long time at this

623
00:22:09.080 --> 00:22:11.840
point but you don't talk about you

624
00:22:11.840 --> 00:22:13.250
know some of that some of that

625
00:22:13.520 --> 00:22:15.260
high level training that you've done you

626
00:22:15.260 --> 00:22:17.672
know what what was your why would

627
00:22:17.672 --> 00:22:19.490
you you know if you or someone

628
00:22:19.490 --> 00:22:21.020
you didn't know anything about guns you

629
00:22:21.020 --> 00:22:22.610
know why not just take like the

630
00:22:22.610 --> 00:22:24.943
basics and stop there you

631
00:22:25.010 --> 00:22:27.408
taken some very advanced classes from some

632
00:22:27.408 --> 00:22:31.580
very rich well respected national trainers now

633
00:22:32.060 --> 00:22:34.580
but you know again beginning with his

634
00:22:34.580 --> 00:22:36.470
idea i'm just going to study concealed

635
00:22:36.470 --> 00:22:38.390
carry then i realize this is bigger

636
00:22:38.390 --> 00:22:41.210
sort of defensive gun culture out there

637
00:22:41.270 --> 00:22:42.770
one of the first things i notice

638
00:22:42.770 --> 00:22:45.045
about that gun culture to porno is

639
00:22:45.590 --> 00:22:48.050
is that there's this huge training community

640
00:22:48.920 --> 00:22:50.810
or huge future then i thought i

641
00:22:50.810 --> 00:22:52.520
mean it's probably it's very modest on

642
00:22:52.580 --> 00:22:55.640
an industry scale just as guns are

643
00:22:55.640 --> 00:22:59.390
modest on an industry scale but you

644
00:22:59.390 --> 00:23:00.980
know i was surprised to know that

645
00:23:00.980 --> 00:23:03.890
there were so many different courses being

646
00:23:03.890 --> 00:23:05.270
offered no way

647
00:23:05.275 --> 00:23:07.940
weekend long week long courses and so

648
00:23:08.270 --> 00:23:09.650
i thought i have to know more

649
00:23:09.650 --> 00:23:11.990
about this i got a small seed

650
00:23:11.990 --> 00:23:14.810
grant from wake forest and one one

651
00:23:14.810 --> 00:23:15.980
of the things i use that money

652
00:23:15.980 --> 00:23:17.450
to do was to to go to

653
00:23:17.450 --> 00:23:20.660
phoenix and take mag forty with masada

654
00:23:20.660 --> 00:23:22.640
youtube his people were talking a lot

655
00:23:22.640 --> 00:23:25.340
about masses and twenty twelve

656
00:23:26.390 --> 00:23:28.580
and you know i think from that

657
00:23:28.790 --> 00:23:31.250
i'd sort of got connected into all

658
00:23:31.250 --> 00:23:32.750
sorts of other people who are part

659
00:23:32.750 --> 00:23:35.120
of the gun training community end up

660
00:23:35.120 --> 00:23:37.850
going to the range master tactical conference

661
00:23:37.880 --> 00:23:39.740
when it was still held in memphis

662
00:23:39.740 --> 00:23:41.060
and you know from there you start

663
00:23:41.060 --> 00:23:44.510
meeting more people and and so i

664
00:23:44.570 --> 00:23:45.590
you know i cumulate

665
00:23:45.590 --> 00:23:50.480
lovely probably observed and or taken several

666
00:23:50.480 --> 00:23:54.080
hundred hours of gun training classes are

667
00:23:54.080 --> 00:23:57.170
largely focused on on defensive firearms and

668
00:23:57.290 --> 00:24:00.800
and really the i conclude the book

669
00:24:00.800 --> 00:24:02.690
while not with the actual conclusion but

670
00:24:02.690 --> 00:24:04.820
the last chapter of the book is

671
00:24:04.820 --> 00:24:05.750
called becoming rich

672
00:24:05.750 --> 00:24:08.240
responsibly armed and it talks about how

673
00:24:08.630 --> 00:24:09.980
you know i went on this kind

674
00:24:09.980 --> 00:24:13.790
of journey into gun training and the

675
00:24:13.794 --> 00:24:15.350
you know really the lessons i learn

676
00:24:15.440 --> 00:24:18.980
in the process about mindset about having

677
00:24:18.980 --> 00:24:22.430
options other than just shooting people and

678
00:24:22.460 --> 00:24:24.200
you know it's it's unfortunate because i

679
00:24:24.200 --> 00:24:25.910
could have written a chapters just about

680
00:24:25.910 --> 00:24:27.470
about gm training i had to squeeze

681
00:24:27.470 --> 00:24:29.030
it all down and into one but

682
00:24:29.030 --> 00:24:30.230
i do try to hit a lot

683
00:24:30.230 --> 00:24:32.480
of the the highlights about you know

684
00:24:32.480 --> 00:24:34.670
what i learn you know beginning with

685
00:24:34.700 --> 00:24:36.470
you know concealed carry and some of

686
00:24:36.470 --> 00:24:39.440
the important things that i learn even

687
00:24:39.440 --> 00:24:42.770
in a concealed carry class let's talk

688
00:24:42.800 --> 00:24:45.740
about concealed carry for four minutes you

689
00:24:45.740 --> 00:24:46.040
know you

690
00:24:46.100 --> 00:24:48.470
talk about how defensive oh you know

691
00:24:48.860 --> 00:24:51.230
the driving factor for a lot of

692
00:24:51.230 --> 00:24:52.790
what we're calling gun culture to point

693
00:24:52.790 --> 00:24:55.310
out is the defensive use of fire

694
00:24:55.400 --> 00:24:58.250
tray you know people as as i

695
00:24:58.250 --> 00:25:00.980
say people the most american thing that

696
00:25:00.980 --> 00:25:02.330
you can do when you don't like

697
00:25:02.330 --> 00:25:04.220
the shape of the world around you

698
00:25:04.220 --> 00:25:05.570
is to buy a gun brighton we

699
00:25:05.570 --> 00:25:06.230
saw a lot of that

700
00:25:06.290 --> 00:25:08.240
during to bed and he you know

701
00:25:08.330 --> 00:25:12.530
following civil unrest but all of those

702
00:25:13.040 --> 00:25:15.710
not all but the the vast majority

703
00:25:15.710 --> 00:25:16.820
of those guns that were bought during

704
00:25:16.820 --> 00:25:18.830
covert were bought with the intent of

705
00:25:18.830 --> 00:25:20.990
personal protection and whether they were ever

706
00:25:21.200 --> 00:25:25.520
even loaded or fired is not you

707
00:25:25.520 --> 00:25:26.180
know that's that's a

708
00:25:26.390 --> 00:25:29.780
clearly different conversation but when you talk

709
00:25:29.780 --> 00:25:31.550
about that idea of owning a gun

710
00:25:31.550 --> 00:25:33.530
for personal protection as being the motivating

711
00:25:33.530 --> 00:25:37.130
factor what has your exposure been to

712
00:25:37.130 --> 00:25:41.840
people's deeper motivations behind personal protection right

713
00:25:41.840 --> 00:25:44.270
like have people had sort of watershed

714
00:25:44.270 --> 00:25:46.010
moments where they're like oce i need

715
00:25:46.010 --> 00:25:46.550
a gun

716
00:25:46.610 --> 00:25:48.020
or is it something that they grew

717
00:25:48.020 --> 00:25:49.370
up with that kind of how does

718
00:25:49.370 --> 00:25:51.020
that how is that have you been

719
00:25:51.020 --> 00:25:55.310
exposed to people's deeper motivations know what

720
00:25:55.340 --> 00:25:56.660
you know here i think there there's

721
00:25:56.660 --> 00:25:59.060
a range of of motivations in all

722
00:25:59.060 --> 00:26:01.370
the way from just for example in

723
00:26:01.370 --> 00:26:02.930
my case in addition to watching top

724
00:26:02.930 --> 00:26:05.150
shot i had a very uncomfortable interaction

725
00:26:05.150 --> 00:26:06.710
with wa

726
00:26:06.710 --> 00:26:08.720
one of my apartment neighbors and her

727
00:26:08.750 --> 00:26:11.060
boyfriend slash drug dealer in our in

728
00:26:11.060 --> 00:26:12.980
the parking lot of our apartment those

729
00:26:12.980 --> 00:26:16.040
are great yeah and you know for

730
00:26:16.040 --> 00:26:17.694
me that was really the first time

731
00:26:17.694 --> 00:26:20.060
i've i made you know direct eye

732
00:26:20.060 --> 00:26:22.220
contact with another person who i realize

733
00:26:22.225 --> 00:26:24.500
would very easily do violence to me

734
00:26:24.860 --> 00:26:26.450
and my kids with me and again

735
00:26:26.450 --> 00:26:26.870
i didn't draw

736
00:26:26.870 --> 00:26:28.640
dr like from the parking lot out

737
00:26:28.640 --> 00:26:31.550
to the gander mountain gm superstore and

738
00:26:31.610 --> 00:26:33.560
load up but it planted a seed

739
00:26:33.560 --> 00:26:35.210
of like hey now this is a

740
00:26:35.210 --> 00:26:36.620
reality out in the world what am

741
00:26:36.620 --> 00:26:38.150
i going to do about it and

742
00:26:38.150 --> 00:26:39.890
i think that a lot of people

743
00:26:39.890 --> 00:26:43.130
have either those kinds of direct experiences

744
00:26:43.130 --> 00:26:45.320
or at least the thought process of

745
00:26:45.320 --> 00:26:46.220
uncertainty

746
00:26:47.060 --> 00:26:50.420
not always necessarily like i got mugged

747
00:26:50.420 --> 00:26:51.920
i need a gun but it could

748
00:26:51.920 --> 00:26:55.790
be wow it's coven and i'm hearing

749
00:26:55.790 --> 00:26:58.700
that the police aren't responding to many

750
00:26:58.700 --> 00:27:01.160
calls right now because they're all out

751
00:27:01.190 --> 00:27:03.590
sick or they're being taxed so maybe

752
00:27:03.590 --> 00:27:04.820
i need to have a plan b

753
00:27:04.820 --> 00:27:07.190
or while there are people who are

754
00:27:07.190 --> 00:27:09.350
or you know protesting in the streets

755
00:27:09.350 --> 00:27:10.250
and it looks like it's getting a

756
00:27:10.250 --> 00:27:12.260
little out of hand or wow that

757
00:27:12.260 --> 00:27:14.540
we're going into a presidential election that

758
00:27:15.080 --> 00:27:16.400
i have no idea what the outcome

759
00:27:16.400 --> 00:27:17.750
of this is going to be so

760
00:27:18.110 --> 00:27:22.220
i talk about insecurity and uncertainty right

761
00:27:22.250 --> 00:27:25.280
and you know the the origins of

762
00:27:25.280 --> 00:27:26.690
gun culture to point out are really

763
00:27:26.690 --> 00:27:27.350
in the nineteen zip

764
00:27:27.350 --> 00:27:28.610
estes in which there was a lot

765
00:27:28.610 --> 00:27:32.330
of uncertainty and insecurity right rising crime

766
00:27:32.330 --> 00:27:34.280
rates in certain areas but also political

767
00:27:34.280 --> 00:27:37.130
instability and just social change right when

768
00:27:37.130 --> 00:27:38.780
you feel like holy crap the world

769
00:27:38.780 --> 00:27:40.250
i'm moving into is not the world

770
00:27:40.250 --> 00:27:42.740
that i'm used to that can create

771
00:27:42.740 --> 00:27:44.810
some of those feelings of sort of

772
00:27:44.810 --> 00:27:47.180
existential anxiety

773
00:27:47.510 --> 00:27:49.310
and you know a lot of people

774
00:27:49.310 --> 00:27:51.769
put defensive gun owners down because they're

775
00:27:51.769 --> 00:27:53.510
like oh you're just freaking out or

776
00:27:53.510 --> 00:27:54.920
you know you're just making up for

777
00:27:54.920 --> 00:27:56.510
your lost social status cause you're a

778
00:27:56.510 --> 00:27:58.310
white man or you know all of

779
00:27:58.310 --> 00:28:01.370
these other sociological explanations for why people

780
00:28:01.370 --> 00:28:03.080
get guns for defensive purposes but i

781
00:28:03.094 --> 00:28:06.350
say like hey i take existential insecurity

782
00:28:06.350 --> 00:28:07.610
seriously that

783
00:28:07.940 --> 00:28:10.250
people respond to that in various different

784
00:28:10.250 --> 00:28:13.880
ways you know some people will have

785
00:28:13.880 --> 00:28:16.100
a midlife crisis some people will get

786
00:28:16.160 --> 00:28:18.860
a dog some people get security cameras

787
00:28:18.860 --> 00:28:20.630
some people move into a gated community

788
00:28:20.960 --> 00:28:22.820
and some people will buy a gun

789
00:28:23.180 --> 00:28:24.530
and you know i think a lot

790
00:28:24.530 --> 00:28:25.877
of people especially in two thousand and

791
00:28:25.877 --> 00:28:27.830
twenty did that but you know go

792
00:28:27.830 --> 00:28:30.290
going back you know forty five or

793
00:28:30.301 --> 00:28:32.300
forty years they were doing that also

794
00:28:32.780 --> 00:28:34.430
well and it's not as i can

795
00:28:34.430 --> 00:28:37.580
think of i'd had the fortune or

796
00:28:37.580 --> 00:28:40.550
misfortune as an elder millennial to live

797
00:28:40.550 --> 00:28:42.830
through a lot of unprecedented times to

798
00:28:42.890 --> 00:28:44.030
the point where i'm ready for some

799
00:28:44.030 --> 00:28:46.340
precedent and times are justified we just

800
00:28:46.340 --> 00:28:47.660
use it you know and then i

801
00:28:47.660 --> 00:28:47.990
was like oh

802
00:28:48.050 --> 00:28:50.480
let's just not do something unprecedented again

803
00:28:50.480 --> 00:28:52.310
and then our version of doing the

804
00:28:52.310 --> 00:28:54.170
same thing again is this upcoming twenty

805
00:28:54.170 --> 00:28:55.520
twenty four election i'm like no we

806
00:28:55.520 --> 00:28:56.330
did that one

807
00:28:57.350 --> 00:28:59.330
but that's not what i meant that

808
00:28:59.330 --> 00:29:00.530
has eyes

809
00:29:01.681 --> 00:29:04.010
have a fight you know i've seen

810
00:29:04.730 --> 00:29:06.200
you know one of the one of

811
00:29:06.200 --> 00:29:08.150
the big ones that i remember is

812
00:29:08.210 --> 00:29:12.710
the the sandy hook shooting any response

813
00:29:12.770 --> 00:29:15.380
to well actually i was in high

814
00:29:15.380 --> 00:29:18.530
school when columbine happened i remembered that

815
00:29:18.530 --> 00:29:21.830
is a vivid emotional and cultural tour

816
00:29:21.830 --> 00:29:24.920
each stone for me and because of

817
00:29:24.920 --> 00:29:27.140
my my background i was raised in

818
00:29:27.140 --> 00:29:29.120
a conservative christian family and my dad

819
00:29:29.120 --> 00:29:32.060
was a cop it never occurred to

820
00:29:32.060 --> 00:29:38.270
me that the nasty used to carry

821
00:29:38.270 --> 00:29:40.430
out the killing was the problem right

822
00:29:40.430 --> 00:29:41.990
because my you know

823
00:29:42.020 --> 00:29:43.700
i was i was raised to believe

824
00:29:43.700 --> 00:29:45.500
in is still a core belief mind

825
00:29:45.800 --> 00:29:46.790
that

826
00:29:48.470 --> 00:29:50.540
pizza people that are the problem right

827
00:29:50.780 --> 00:29:52.250
and people are always going to be

828
00:29:52.250 --> 00:29:54.080
the root cause of the problem now

829
00:29:54.500 --> 00:29:57.590
what influences people to become that sort

830
00:29:57.590 --> 00:30:00.200
of problem that's again a discussion for

831
00:30:00.320 --> 00:30:03.140
psychologists and criminologists and people much smarter

832
00:30:03.140 --> 00:30:05.180
than me but i remember my dad

833
00:30:05.240 --> 00:30:07.430
saying something along the lines of

834
00:30:09.140 --> 00:30:11.150
he basically said that if he was

835
00:30:11.150 --> 00:30:12.770
outside of that school nothing could have

836
00:30:12.770 --> 00:30:14.900
stopped him from going in you know

837
00:30:14.930 --> 00:30:17.840
and i remember that very vividly and

838
00:30:17.840 --> 00:30:19.580
my thought was yeah that makes sense

839
00:30:19.580 --> 00:30:21.024
it's your job you're a police officer

840
00:30:21.024 --> 00:30:23.360
you're save the kids right and those

841
00:30:23.360 --> 00:30:25.130
columbine and sandy hook and you know

842
00:30:25.130 --> 00:30:27.260
the the the other ones that we've

843
00:30:27.260 --> 00:30:28.250
had since then

844
00:30:28.340 --> 00:30:30.230
i remember sandy hook specifically because i

845
00:30:30.230 --> 00:30:33.050
worked in the gun industry and it

846
00:30:33.620 --> 00:30:37.700
i had never seen eight through you

847
00:30:37.700 --> 00:30:40.220
know run on the banks quote unquote

848
00:30:40.340 --> 00:30:43.430
like that before and in the with

849
00:30:43.460 --> 00:30:45.830
a wit and i look back on

850
00:30:45.830 --> 00:30:47.840
it now and it feels silly because

851
00:30:47.960 --> 00:30:48.440
president

852
00:30:48.995 --> 00:30:50.225
for what love him or hate him

853
00:30:50.225 --> 00:30:52.175
was not that anti gun in terms

854
00:30:52.175 --> 00:30:54.365
of policy and this is an important

855
00:30:54.365 --> 00:30:55.655
distinction that i think that a lot

856
00:30:55.655 --> 00:30:57.095
of gun owners and people on my

857
00:30:57.095 --> 00:31:00.155
side don't can't make is they cannot

858
00:31:00.155 --> 00:31:02.375
distinguish a person's rhetoric from their actual

859
00:31:02.375 --> 00:31:04.745
policies that they have enacted right because

860
00:31:04.745 --> 00:31:06.845
president obama's rhetoric was very anti gun

861
00:31:07.205 --> 00:31:09.035
his policies in office were not

862
00:31:09.545 --> 00:31:12.065
and would he have been had he

863
00:31:12.065 --> 00:31:14.285
had a friendlier congress i don't know

864
00:31:14.285 --> 00:31:17.495
that's again an argument for revisionist historians

865
00:31:17.765 --> 00:31:19.925
to have and not me but i

866
00:31:20.105 --> 00:31:21.815
but is looking at it at the

867
00:31:21.815 --> 00:31:24.785
time watching people be extremely concerned about

868
00:31:24.785 --> 00:31:26.735
the possibility of the government taking that

869
00:31:26.735 --> 00:31:28.865
away and doing a run on you

870
00:31:28.865 --> 00:31:29.195
know

871
00:31:29.675 --> 00:31:32.105
air fifteen style rifles ammunition and stuff

872
00:31:32.105 --> 00:31:33.275
like that and and seeing that same

873
00:31:33.275 --> 00:31:36.095
thing out again encoded it

874
00:31:37.535 --> 00:31:39.125
i had a point and i completely

875
00:31:39.125 --> 00:31:42.545
lost it it makes me wonder we

876
00:31:42.545 --> 00:31:43.745
have a you know it makes me

877
00:31:43.745 --> 00:31:46.415
wonder whether or not there are some

878
00:31:46.505 --> 00:31:48.365
threads you know we talked about how

879
00:31:48.365 --> 00:31:51.365
gun culture is not a monolith and

880
00:31:51.365 --> 00:31:53.015
there's different chunks of it but it

881
00:31:53.015 --> 00:31:54.245
makes me wonder if there's threads that

882
00:31:54.245 --> 00:31:56.225
tie it all together like that right

883
00:31:56.225 --> 00:31:57.275
because basically everyone

884
00:31:57.275 --> 00:31:59.015
see i knew when i did during

885
00:31:59.015 --> 00:32:00.395
covert i went out and bought ammo

886
00:32:00.425 --> 00:32:02.615
i still have a crate of federal

887
00:32:02.615 --> 00:32:04.805
flight control buckshot in my gun closet

888
00:32:04.805 --> 00:32:07.235
that i have not i haven't even

889
00:32:07.265 --> 00:32:09.005
i have a shotgun that i've i

890
00:32:09.275 --> 00:32:10.985
shoot the shot gotta have the it's

891
00:32:10.985 --> 00:32:12.635
really good ammo but i haven't shot

892
00:32:12.635 --> 00:32:13.775
it what do i need five hundred

893
00:32:13.775 --> 00:32:16.565
rounds of that four have awesome

894
00:32:18.035 --> 00:32:19.655
well you know i think i was

895
00:32:19.655 --> 00:32:22.025
at the tam who said the fu

896
00:32:22.085 --> 00:32:25.865
if organs disintegrated the on the shooting

897
00:32:25.865 --> 00:32:27.695
the fiftieth round but most guns would

898
00:32:27.695 --> 00:32:30.635
still exist and that i know i

899
00:32:30.635 --> 00:32:32.105
don't i'm not on the front lines

900
00:32:32.105 --> 00:32:33.395
and in gun stores but i know

901
00:32:33.395 --> 00:32:36.485
when i was crisscrossing the country last

902
00:32:36.485 --> 00:32:37.355
summer i was

903
00:32:37.715 --> 00:32:39.425
so if i stopped indices a friend

904
00:32:39.425 --> 00:32:40.565
who is working in a gun store

905
00:32:40.565 --> 00:32:41.975
i'd say like now what would he

906
00:32:41.975 --> 00:32:44.255
sing terms of buying and then also

907
00:32:44.255 --> 00:32:45.665
selling in there saying in a lot

908
00:32:45.665 --> 00:32:47.885
lot of people who bought guns in

909
00:32:47.885 --> 00:32:49.835
twenty twenty or bring their brand new

910
00:32:49.835 --> 00:32:52.715
guns back you know to to put

911
00:32:52.715 --> 00:32:54.185
on consignment or to sell back to

912
00:32:54.185 --> 00:32:56.405
the store and very disappointed at how

913
00:32:56.465 --> 00:32:57.755
little value they get

914
00:32:58.055 --> 00:33:00.095
for their brand basically brand new gun

915
00:33:00.095 --> 00:33:01.895
right they bought a gun they brought

916
00:33:01.895 --> 00:33:03.455
it home and it just sat there

917
00:33:03.635 --> 00:33:04.685
in a you know there are certain

918
00:33:04.685 --> 00:33:06.695
ways in which that's you know like

919
00:33:06.695 --> 00:33:07.892
it's a great time to buy a

920
00:33:07.892 --> 00:33:10.535
used rv or a peloton bike or

921
00:33:10.535 --> 00:33:13.025
away my god yes because they're just

922
00:33:13.175 --> 00:33:14.855
brand new stuff flooding back onto the

923
00:33:14.855 --> 00:33:17.075
market now know three four years later

924
00:33:17.075 --> 00:33:17.915
so much

925
00:33:17.945 --> 00:33:19.895
probably you know some of this the

926
00:33:19.895 --> 00:33:21.875
sandy hook you know the columbine buying

927
00:33:21.875 --> 00:33:24.575
spree now that that some people will

928
00:33:24.845 --> 00:33:27.155
sort of react by buying a gun

929
00:33:27.155 --> 00:33:28.235
and then realize why did i do

930
00:33:28.235 --> 00:33:30.305
that not you know i'm not using

931
00:33:30.305 --> 00:33:33.215
this thing and would you say that

932
00:33:33.245 --> 00:33:35.135
i i i i'm reminded of a

933
00:33:35.135 --> 00:33:37.265
conversation i had during covert in a

934
00:33:37.265 --> 00:33:38.075
liquor store

935
00:33:38.075 --> 00:33:41.465
of all places with a guy who

936
00:33:41.825 --> 00:33:43.235
i think i must be wearing like

937
00:33:43.235 --> 00:33:45.455
a branded shirt or something and he

938
00:33:45.455 --> 00:33:46.625
asked me what i did for living

939
00:33:46.625 --> 00:33:48.455
and talked about the firearms industry and

940
00:33:48.605 --> 00:33:50.195
he asked me about advice to you

941
00:33:50.195 --> 00:33:52.145
know he was like he he it

942
00:33:52.145 --> 00:33:53.975
was it was the height of covert

943
00:33:53.975 --> 00:33:55.826
it was twenty twenty and he was

944
00:33:55.826 --> 00:33:57.305
like i need a gun for personal

945
00:33:57.305 --> 00:33:58.149
protection and

946
00:33:58.265 --> 00:33:59.435
my head i remember looking at him

947
00:33:59.435 --> 00:34:01.835
and thinking you probably go to you

948
00:34:01.835 --> 00:34:03.905
are an upper clip middle class man

949
00:34:03.905 --> 00:34:06.365
in a nice suburb of south carolina

950
00:34:06.695 --> 00:34:08.885
you know the the ah the black

951
00:34:08.885 --> 00:34:10.865
panthers aren't coming down the street to

952
00:34:10.925 --> 00:34:12.065
burn your house down

953
00:34:13.535 --> 00:34:16.055
and i remember that you know i

954
00:34:16.055 --> 00:34:17.945
told him that i told him the

955
00:34:17.945 --> 00:34:19.655
thing that i tell basically everybody who

956
00:34:19.655 --> 00:34:20.885
i think is going to buy a

957
00:34:20.885 --> 00:34:22.505
gun never train with it which is

958
00:34:22.505 --> 00:34:24.485
actually to get a revolver because it's

959
00:34:24.575 --> 00:34:28.775
difficult to negligently discharge but you know

960
00:34:28.775 --> 00:34:31.295
i remember i remember that conversation very

961
00:34:31.295 --> 00:34:33.275
i remember that conversation very well

962
00:34:33.335 --> 00:34:34.805
because that was i think the first

963
00:34:34.805 --> 00:34:37.715
time in my professional career where somebody

964
00:34:37.715 --> 00:34:39.215
told me that they wanted a gun

965
00:34:39.215 --> 00:34:41.705
for personal protection and my first impulse

966
00:34:41.705 --> 00:34:43.595
was to tell them no and you

967
00:34:43.595 --> 00:34:46.205
know and to be like there's better

968
00:34:46.205 --> 00:34:48.245
options out there for you and do

969
00:34:48.245 --> 00:34:50.885
you think that you know you had

970
00:34:51.095 --> 00:34:53.135
you had chuck chuck haggard pepper spray

971
00:34:53.135 --> 00:34:53.435
class

972
00:34:53.525 --> 00:34:56.105
right or at the very least not

973
00:34:56.105 --> 00:34:58.475
directly yeah but people who have no

974
00:34:58.475 --> 00:35:01.055
learned from him have you been pepper

975
00:35:01.055 --> 00:35:03.605
sprayed i've never been pepper sprayed before

976
00:35:03.605 --> 00:35:06.005
no do it no it's the worst

977
00:35:06.005 --> 00:35:08.525
it's the worst thing ever i would

978
00:35:08.525 --> 00:35:11.585
rather be tasered again than be pepper

979
00:35:11.585 --> 00:35:13.595
sprayed again it's terrible

980
00:35:14.705 --> 00:35:16.595
cause when they win the electorate when

981
00:35:16.595 --> 00:35:18.485
they electricity from the taser shuts off

982
00:35:18.485 --> 00:35:20.405
so does the pain that never spray

983
00:35:20.405 --> 00:35:21.995
paint is not shut off when they're

984
00:35:21.995 --> 00:35:24.455
done pepper spray you persist it's ok

985
00:35:24.725 --> 00:35:26.885
but up there with like you know

986
00:35:26.885 --> 00:35:28.505
i think one of the one of

987
00:35:28.505 --> 00:35:30.935
the things you know that one of

988
00:35:30.935 --> 00:35:33.185
their acid resources that you provide and

989
00:35:33.185 --> 00:35:33.725
then i try to

990
00:35:33.755 --> 00:35:36.545
point people to you is a measured

991
00:35:36.545 --> 00:35:38.045
perspective on maybe you don't need a

992
00:35:38.045 --> 00:35:38.855
gun right

993
00:35:40.025 --> 00:35:42.935
yeah nah i think the the you

994
00:35:42.935 --> 00:35:44.765
know if you're in the gun community

995
00:35:44.765 --> 00:35:47.045
long enough then you will hear people

996
00:35:47.045 --> 00:35:49.985
talking about you know the these people

997
00:35:49.985 --> 00:35:52.205
should not have guns or i don't

998
00:35:52.205 --> 00:35:54.275
go to public ranges because i don't

999
00:35:54.275 --> 00:35:56.345
feel safe at shooting at public ranges

1000
00:35:56.825 --> 00:35:58.325
and so you know i think by

1001
00:35:58.325 --> 00:36:00.155
and large gun owners

1002
00:36:00.155 --> 00:36:01.865
are are responsible and try to do

1003
00:36:01.865 --> 00:36:03.575
the right thing but there's always room

1004
00:36:03.575 --> 00:36:06.215
for improvement but it becomes hard you

1005
00:36:06.215 --> 00:36:09.035
know to say anything negative like certain

1006
00:36:09.035 --> 00:36:10.715
people shouldn't have guns or this person

1007
00:36:10.715 --> 00:36:12.125
shouldn't have a gun or we need

1008
00:36:12.125 --> 00:36:15.575
to better policing our ranges and because

1009
00:36:15.575 --> 00:36:17.765
there's so much feeling of threat from

1010
00:36:17.765 --> 00:36:19.955
the outside right if we ever expose

1011
00:36:20.345 --> 00:36:22.445
any weaknesses then people are just going

1012
00:36:22.445 --> 00:36:24.000
to swoop right in and say aha

1013
00:36:24.000 --> 00:36:25.445
see we told you that gun owners

1014
00:36:25.445 --> 00:36:28.175
are terrible people so you know i

1015
00:36:28.175 --> 00:36:31.085
i try to say like oak if

1016
00:36:31.085 --> 00:36:33.575
we don't do some some good edgy

1017
00:36:33.575 --> 00:36:35.915
self education and it was cleaned the

1018
00:36:35.915 --> 00:36:37.925
culture up then that's going to give

1019
00:36:38.135 --> 00:36:40.475
life to people who want to regulate

1020
00:36:40.475 --> 00:36:42.785
from the outside but you know part

1021
00:36:42.785 --> 00:36:44.495
of part of that cleaning up could

1022
00:36:44.495 --> 00:36:47.285
be like saying hey look you not

1023
00:36:47.285 --> 00:36:48.575
just even in a nasty way but

1024
00:36:48.575 --> 00:36:50.135
like hey look you seem to be

1025
00:36:50.195 --> 00:36:53.255
unwell right now like maybe it's not

1026
00:36:53.255 --> 00:36:55.355
a good time for you to have

1027
00:36:55.355 --> 00:36:57.275
a gun or you don't seem like

1028
00:36:57.275 --> 00:37:00.035
a very stable make you probably shouldn't

1029
00:37:00.095 --> 00:37:00.635
bring a gun

1030
00:37:00.665 --> 00:37:03.275
into your household or like this advice

1031
00:37:03.275 --> 00:37:04.955
like oh you're in a situation of

1032
00:37:04.955 --> 00:37:06.845
domestic violence in your you know you

1033
00:37:06.845 --> 00:37:08.825
should get a gun i mean that's

1034
00:37:08.915 --> 00:37:11.225
that's could be a recipe for disaster

1035
00:37:11.285 --> 00:37:13.445
you know that the the just saying

1036
00:37:13.445 --> 00:37:15.635
oh when women who are abused need

1037
00:37:15.635 --> 00:37:18.755
guns i think that's just too simplistic

1038
00:37:19.325 --> 00:37:20.615
wait a minute are you telling me

1039
00:37:20.615 --> 00:37:20.765
that

1040
00:37:20.825 --> 00:37:23.735
people's personal lives in self defense dilemmas

1041
00:37:23.735 --> 00:37:25.955
are complex and often nuance can't be

1042
00:37:25.955 --> 00:37:28.355
handled with five second soundbite advice

1043
00:37:29.525 --> 00:37:31.985
i shot a shot or a shot

1044
00:37:32.135 --> 00:37:34.085
i'm pre preaching to the choir i'm

1045
00:37:34.085 --> 00:37:35.735
preaching to the choir you know a

1046
00:37:35.735 --> 00:37:38.315
little bit and i hope dax ghost

1047
00:37:38.555 --> 00:37:40.235
gets out that this will we're going

1048
00:37:40.235 --> 00:37:41.043
to try to push the site to

1049
00:37:41.043 --> 00:37:42.485
a wider audience but one of the

1050
00:37:42.485 --> 00:37:43.925
things that you said reminded me of

1051
00:37:43.925 --> 00:37:46.145
something that my wife set has said

1052
00:37:46.145 --> 00:37:47.339
about an r a b he says

1053
00:37:47.339 --> 00:37:48.965
she has a negative perception of the

1054
00:37:48.965 --> 00:37:49.535
array

1055
00:37:49.955 --> 00:37:52.565
and sheep because they have gotten very

1056
00:37:52.565 --> 00:37:57.095
heavily involved in more politics beyond just

1057
00:37:57.475 --> 00:37:59.855
gun politics and even simmons something down

1058
00:37:59.855 --> 00:38:01.145
on gun politics has been a little

1059
00:38:01.415 --> 00:38:03.785
cringe and she said in it she

1060
00:38:03.785 --> 00:38:05.157
said something to the extent of the

1061
00:38:05.157 --> 00:38:06.725
you know the enter ray had the

1062
00:38:06.725 --> 00:38:09.185
opportunity to be the adult voice in

1063
00:38:09.185 --> 00:38:09.755
the room

1064
00:38:10.025 --> 00:38:12.065
and instead chose to swing for cringe

1065
00:38:12.065 --> 00:38:13.925
politics and when she said that houses

1066
00:38:14.075 --> 00:38:16.235
ah you're really right about that and

1067
00:38:16.235 --> 00:38:18.185
that kind of hurts that that gives

1068
00:38:18.185 --> 00:38:20.045
me right there because i i do

1069
00:38:20.045 --> 00:38:22.295
think she's right and i think one

1070
00:38:22.295 --> 00:38:23.705
of the end i think you know

1071
00:38:23.705 --> 00:38:25.415
as an example of policing our own

1072
00:38:25.415 --> 00:38:27.245
i do think that the community is

1073
00:38:27.245 --> 00:38:28.865
trying to police the in our favorite

1074
00:38:29.045 --> 00:38:29.915
yell at you

1075
00:38:29.915 --> 00:38:32.855
you had some great content around that

1076
00:38:32.855 --> 00:38:34.985
from entering annual meetings and can you

1077
00:38:34.985 --> 00:38:36.215
shed a little bit a little bit

1078
00:38:36.215 --> 00:38:37.415
of light on you know what you

1079
00:38:37.415 --> 00:38:38.615
observed and kind of what was going

1080
00:38:38.615 --> 00:38:38.945
on

1081
00:38:40.025 --> 00:38:41.255
yeah well you know i don't always

1082
00:38:41.255 --> 00:38:42.875
go to the enter a meetings where

1083
00:38:42.875 --> 00:38:44.885
i went in to twenty nineteen and

1084
00:38:44.885 --> 00:38:47.105
twenty twenty four and in both years

1085
00:38:47.105 --> 00:38:49.295
there was sort of a kind of

1086
00:38:49.295 --> 00:38:53.315
members uprising to try to get get

1087
00:38:53.315 --> 00:38:55.415
the nrl back on track to to

1088
00:38:55.415 --> 00:38:58.655
get the wayne lapierre out to get

1089
00:38:58.655 --> 00:39:00.155
his cronies on the board out

1090
00:39:00.155 --> 00:39:02.285
i am in twenty nineteen it was

1091
00:39:02.285 --> 00:39:04.055
pretty much a miserable failure but in

1092
00:39:04.055 --> 00:39:06.455
twenty twenty four obviously in the wake

1093
00:39:06.455 --> 00:39:09.455
of the the new york attorney general's

1094
00:39:09.455 --> 00:39:14.045
a successful prosecution of that of enter

1095
00:39:14.045 --> 00:39:17.015
a leadership of the the this kind

1096
00:39:17.015 --> 00:39:19.025
of members uprising that took place at

1097
00:39:19.025 --> 00:39:20.315
the members meeting were

1098
00:39:20.324 --> 00:39:21.995
really was much more successful you know

1099
00:39:21.995 --> 00:39:24.455
there was a proposal to move the

1100
00:39:24.455 --> 00:39:27.725
enter a headquarters to texas and that

1101
00:39:27.725 --> 00:39:30.845
was beaten back despite the strong support

1102
00:39:30.845 --> 00:39:33.335
from the president of the nrl charles

1103
00:39:33.335 --> 00:39:35.615
cotton than others and you know you

1104
00:39:35.615 --> 00:39:38.105
really see some some board members starting

1105
00:39:38.105 --> 00:39:40.475
to act independently as you know

1106
00:39:40.475 --> 00:39:42.845
no a nonprofit board is supposed to

1107
00:39:42.845 --> 00:39:44.705
and yes i think that it's not

1108
00:39:44.705 --> 00:39:46.385
clear that the energy is completely turned

1109
00:39:46.385 --> 00:39:48.515
the corner but there was some definite

1110
00:39:49.415 --> 00:39:51.575
highlights in one of the things that

1111
00:39:51.575 --> 00:39:52.955
again i'm sorry i'm in new york

1112
00:39:52.955 --> 00:39:56.045
or not the youtube natural okay

1113
00:39:57.725 --> 00:40:01.715
but the talking to some board members

1114
00:40:02.105 --> 00:40:05.615
who are extraordinarily conservative and you know

1115
00:40:05.825 --> 00:40:09.815
talking trump delegates kind of conservative but

1116
00:40:09.875 --> 00:40:12.065
saying like hey there's a bunch of

1117
00:40:12.065 --> 00:40:13.595
us out here that don't want the

1118
00:40:13.595 --> 00:40:15.455
energy to be a right wing culture

1119
00:40:15.455 --> 00:40:16.715
warrior organization

1120
00:40:16.805 --> 00:40:18.635
like we want the energy to focus

1121
00:40:18.635 --> 00:40:20.735
on guns and gun rights and leave

1122
00:40:21.095 --> 00:40:24.065
all of the other garbage behind not

1123
00:40:24.065 --> 00:40:26.285
garbage if those are your sincere political

1124
00:40:26.975 --> 00:40:28.805
theirs leave all the other bullet culture

1125
00:40:28.805 --> 00:40:30.845
war stuff behind there are orbs who

1126
00:40:30.845 --> 00:40:33.695
are here to fight you know whatever

1127
00:40:33.905 --> 00:40:35.945
right wing culture war battle you want

1128
00:40:35.975 --> 00:40:36.875
whether or not i

1129
00:40:36.875 --> 00:40:38.015
i agree with him or i don't

1130
00:40:38.015 --> 00:40:39.695
there are other places for that to

1131
00:40:39.695 --> 00:40:42.815
take place then from the n r

1132
00:40:42.815 --> 00:40:45.185
a no and there was a recognition

1133
00:40:45.185 --> 00:40:47.105
that yeah that that's one of the

1134
00:40:47.105 --> 00:40:48.905
directions that we're trying to go you

1135
00:40:48.905 --> 00:40:51.305
know amanda cervical said we're we're trying

1136
00:40:51.305 --> 00:40:52.985
to get ten million enter a members

1137
00:40:52.985 --> 00:40:54.695
and i'm like well then you really

1138
00:40:54.695 --> 00:40:57.035
gotta drop you know the non gun

1139
00:40:57.599 --> 00:40:59.780
takes angles because you know there's a

1140
00:40:59.780 --> 00:41:01.310
lot of people who aren't going to

1141
00:41:01.310 --> 00:41:04.400
be involved with you simply because of

1142
00:41:04.400 --> 00:41:05.447
that and i really you know i

1143
00:41:05.447 --> 00:41:07.130
think back to this is going back

1144
00:41:07.130 --> 00:41:08.720
to to guns on t v but

1145
00:41:08.720 --> 00:41:11.690
enter a tv there was this mix

1146
00:41:11.720 --> 00:41:15.740
of potentially amazing content bringing in women

1147
00:41:15.740 --> 00:41:17.660
gun owners racial minority gun out

1148
00:41:17.660 --> 00:41:19.700
owners chris chang right but at the

1149
00:41:19.700 --> 00:41:21.320
same time you have to you know

1150
00:41:21.320 --> 00:41:24.620
watch whoever it is smashing tv's and

1151
00:41:24.620 --> 00:41:26.600
dana last spring the new york times

1152
00:41:26.600 --> 00:41:28.190
and you know hordes of immigrants come

1153
00:41:28.190 --> 00:41:30.500
across a water and i'm like if

1154
00:41:30.500 --> 00:41:32.240
it was just leave that aside and

1155
00:41:32.240 --> 00:41:36.620
just present this beautiful diverse interesting face

1156
00:41:36.620 --> 00:41:37.310
of guns

1157
00:41:38.000 --> 00:41:40.160
that's a n more likely to get

1158
00:41:40.160 --> 00:41:41.510
you to ten million than the other

1159
00:41:41.510 --> 00:41:41.750
one

1160
00:41:43.070 --> 00:41:45.950
yeah their energy tv was that was

1161
00:41:45.950 --> 00:41:48.710
an interesting experiment and i could lie

1162
00:41:48.714 --> 00:41:50.600
i could probably do a whole you

1163
00:41:50.600 --> 00:41:52.550
know forty five minute episode on that

1164
00:41:52.580 --> 00:41:55.190
but speaking one forty five minutes any

1165
00:41:55.190 --> 00:41:58.790
interest of your time i have two

1166
00:41:58.790 --> 00:42:02.030
questions last short form answers the first

1167
00:42:02.060 --> 00:42:02.660
eight well

1168
00:42:03.080 --> 00:42:04.670
you know let the first may not

1169
00:42:04.670 --> 00:42:07.130
be short for himself but i have

1170
00:42:07.130 --> 00:42:08.240
to as he because you are an

1171
00:42:08.240 --> 00:42:10.130
academic and because i've seen it and

1172
00:42:10.130 --> 00:42:12.170
i thought it was amazing and hilarious

1173
00:42:12.530 --> 00:42:14.840
have you seen the steady by

1174
00:42:16.010 --> 00:42:19.850
oh university of texas cnn and o'neill

1175
00:42:20.300 --> 00:42:24.230
about penis dissatisfaction and gun ownership in

1176
00:42:24.230 --> 00:42:28.130
america yes so and for the record

1177
00:42:28.130 --> 00:42:30.170
this shows normally kinda low-brow and i

1178
00:42:30.170 --> 00:42:32.210
had to get one tennis reference into

1179
00:42:32.210 --> 00:42:33.890
it and this is the most academic

1180
00:42:33.890 --> 00:42:35.150
way i can figure out how to

1181
00:42:35.180 --> 00:42:35.720
do it

1182
00:42:36.300 --> 00:42:38.690
any thoughts justino ten thousand foot view

1183
00:42:39.260 --> 00:42:41.570
that mean it's a legitimate academic study

1184
00:42:41.570 --> 00:42:44.510
i know of every author on that

1185
00:42:44.510 --> 00:42:46.250
study and i lamented the fact that

1186
00:42:46.250 --> 00:42:47.960
they didn't invite me to be a

1187
00:42:47.960 --> 00:42:50.210
coauthor on the study because of nothing

1188
00:42:50.210 --> 00:42:51.800
i would rather have than that on

1189
00:42:51.800 --> 00:42:53.030
my resume

1190
00:42:54.200 --> 00:42:57.410
this but you know it's a you

1191
00:42:57.410 --> 00:42:59.210
know it's one of those things where

1192
00:43:00.830 --> 00:43:03.350
you know that every question you know

1193
00:43:03.350 --> 00:43:06.500
merits a potential response and so there

1194
00:43:06.500 --> 00:43:08.090
is so much of this garbage out

1195
00:43:08.090 --> 00:43:10.910
there about you know guns and penises

1196
00:43:10.910 --> 00:43:13.070
that i'm glad that someone finally said

1197
00:43:13.070 --> 00:43:14.630
hey look there's some data that we

1198
00:43:14.630 --> 00:43:17.750
have to answer this question and you

1199
00:43:17.750 --> 00:43:20.000
know let's just stop talking about it

1200
00:43:20.000 --> 00:43:20.540
now because

1201
00:43:20.540 --> 00:43:22.880
as it's been scientifically proven to be

1202
00:43:23.180 --> 00:43:26.420
false although it's probably not going to

1203
00:43:26.480 --> 00:43:28.850
stop happening no of course not no

1204
00:43:28.850 --> 00:43:31.280
it's it's it's too deeply entrenched in

1205
00:43:31.280 --> 00:43:34.580
the cultural zeitgeist to ever really stop

1206
00:43:34.910 --> 00:43:37.790
happening i do a bit about it

1207
00:43:37.790 --> 00:43:38.990
you know one of my favorite jokes

1208
00:43:38.990 --> 00:43:40.130
is like hey have you heard the

1209
00:43:40.130 --> 00:43:40.580
one about you

1210
00:43:40.700 --> 00:43:42.620
oh guys with big tracks and big

1211
00:43:42.620 --> 00:43:44.510
guns are compensating for tiny penises and

1212
00:43:44.510 --> 00:43:45.920
then my punchline is i ride a

1213
00:43:45.920 --> 00:43:49.490
bus bench area thirty two so infer

1214
00:43:49.490 --> 00:43:53.600
from draw your own conclusions league hysterical

1215
00:43:54.020 --> 00:43:56.930
have the alright last question and this

1216
00:43:56.930 --> 00:43:59.270
is the gear question what is your

1217
00:43:59.300 --> 00:44:00.650
e d c when you do carry

1218
00:44:00.650 --> 00:44:00.837
and

1219
00:44:00.890 --> 00:44:03.500
i and i fully understand you are

1220
00:44:03.500 --> 00:44:05.120
an environment where you can't carry every

1221
00:44:05.120 --> 00:44:06.950
day because you work in a university

1222
00:44:06.950 --> 00:44:08.510
and there's like rules and shit about

1223
00:44:08.510 --> 00:44:10.010
that and i work in the gun

1224
00:44:10.010 --> 00:44:12.500
industry i and i am in a

1225
00:44:12.530 --> 00:44:15.230
room full of guns right now shall

1226
00:44:15.620 --> 00:44:19.370
i carry a glock forty eight with

1227
00:44:19.370 --> 00:44:21.020
the iron sights in a

1228
00:44:21.080 --> 00:44:24.590
dark star gear appendix inside the waistband

1229
00:44:24.680 --> 00:44:28.400
holster awesome standards magazines you know i'm

1230
00:44:28.490 --> 00:44:30.230
ten plus one i may die you

1231
00:44:30.230 --> 00:44:31.250
know because i don't have a red

1232
00:44:31.250 --> 00:44:33.740
dot or you know shield magazines but

1233
00:44:33.860 --> 00:44:35.300
i carry a five shot revolver a

1234
00:44:35.300 --> 00:44:36.290
lot of the time and he can

1235
00:44:36.290 --> 00:44:39.320
be all right yeah and i've tried

1236
00:44:39.320 --> 00:44:41.180
to carry bigger guns it's like this

1237
00:44:41.180 --> 00:44:43.106
this is very very comfortable for me

1238
00:44:43.106 --> 00:44:44.960
at that i can wear like all

1239
00:44:44.960 --> 00:44:46.520
day long if i need to or

1240
00:44:46.520 --> 00:44:49.220
want to and so i feel fairly

1241
00:44:49.220 --> 00:44:51.320
proficient with it when i'm on the

1242
00:44:51.320 --> 00:44:53.780
range and i'm not opposed to to

1243
00:44:53.780 --> 00:44:56.570
checking out the thought lifestyle especially as

1244
00:44:56.570 --> 00:44:58.640
my eyes get worse and worse but

1245
00:44:58.700 --> 00:44:59.660
just haven't gotten there yet

1246
00:45:00.620 --> 00:45:02.450
yeah that's the funny thing about dodd's

1247
00:45:02.450 --> 00:45:03.830
a game white said this in a

1248
00:45:03.830 --> 00:45:05.420
class i took from him i he

1249
00:45:05.420 --> 00:45:06.590
said the reason he doesn't use a

1250
00:45:06.590 --> 00:45:08.270
red dot yet is because his eyes

1251
00:45:08.270 --> 00:45:10.820
are still good with irons and i

1252
00:45:10.820 --> 00:45:12.590
use i i go back and forth

1253
00:45:12.830 --> 00:45:14.720
but the reason that i am not

1254
00:45:14.870 --> 00:45:16.460
dedicated to one hundred per cent dot

1255
00:45:16.460 --> 00:45:17.810
life guys cause my eyes to work

1256
00:45:17.810 --> 00:45:19.070
pretty well with iron sights

1257
00:45:20.510 --> 00:45:23.022
also practically speaking about what i mean

1258
00:45:23.120 --> 00:45:24.800
what does gabe white need to do

1259
00:45:24.800 --> 00:45:26.840
better you know in terms of shooting

1260
00:45:26.840 --> 00:45:29.210
so like gabler is he's good i

1261
00:45:29.210 --> 00:45:32.060
think he said above but professor alright

1262
00:45:32.060 --> 00:45:33.950
so where can people go and get

1263
00:45:33.950 --> 00:45:37.490
copies of gun curious yeah so all

1264
00:45:37.490 --> 00:45:40.160
major retailers including walking into your local

1265
00:45:40.160 --> 00:45:40.460
bookstore

1266
00:45:40.460 --> 00:45:42.620
tour in and requesting it they'll probably

1267
00:45:42.620 --> 00:45:43.880
have to order it's not likely to

1268
00:45:43.880 --> 00:45:45.110
be on the bookshelves but if you

1269
00:45:45.110 --> 00:45:47.060
go to gun curious dot com it'll

1270
00:45:47.060 --> 00:45:49.580
give links to all of your options

1271
00:45:50.780 --> 00:45:52.397
it is also on the website that

1272
00:45:52.397 --> 00:45:54.230
used to be a bookstore amazon i

1273
00:45:54.230 --> 00:45:56.030
just look so it's there and there's

1274
00:45:56.030 --> 00:45:58.400
a kindle edition as well so for

1275
00:45:58.400 --> 00:46:00.350
my e reading friends i'll post a

1276
00:46:00.350 --> 00:46:01.850
link to this as well in the

1277
00:46:01.850 --> 00:46:04.130
show notes and if people are interested

1278
00:46:04.130 --> 00:46:06.200
in following you on social media or

1279
00:46:06.200 --> 00:46:08.120
interacting with you where can they do

1280
00:46:08.120 --> 00:46:08.420
that

1281
00:46:09.500 --> 00:46:12.817
i'm pretty active on twitter slash exile

1282
00:46:12.817 --> 00:46:15.740
as well as instagram and facebook and

1283
00:46:15.740 --> 00:46:17.270
i have a youtube channel if you

1284
00:46:17.300 --> 00:46:19.490
go to light overheat dot com that's

1285
00:46:19.490 --> 00:46:21.800
my short form and by short form

1286
00:46:21.800 --> 00:46:23.870
i mean six eight minute videos sometimes

1287
00:46:23.870 --> 00:46:28.040
longer you know me commenting on all

1288
00:46:28.040 --> 00:46:29.660
things guns since my

1289
00:46:29.660 --> 00:46:32.450
my blog readership has fallen off so

1290
00:46:32.450 --> 00:46:34.160
dramatically i had to make the youtube

1291
00:46:34.190 --> 00:46:34.490
jump

1292
00:46:36.110 --> 00:46:37.910
yup blogs used to be the hotness

1293
00:46:37.910 --> 00:46:39.650
and they're not any more well again

1294
00:46:39.830 --> 00:46:41.090
david thank you so much for coming

1295
00:46:41.090 --> 00:46:43.160
on i really appreciate you taking the

1296
00:46:43.160 --> 00:46:44.300
time to chat with me to chat

1297
00:46:44.300 --> 00:46:47.480
with our listeners and for those guys

1298
00:46:47.480 --> 00:46:48.830
who are out there listening to this

1299
00:46:48.830 --> 00:46:51.440
thank you for listening and watching please

1300
00:46:51.470 --> 00:46:53.120
do share the share with your friends

1301
00:46:53.120 --> 00:46:55.131
family and you know the internet people

1302
00:46:55.131 --> 00:46:55.820
will put them in your car

1303
00:46:55.820 --> 00:46:56.810
or make them listen to it while

1304
00:46:56.810 --> 00:46:58.250
you drive to work don't do that

1305
00:46:58.250 --> 00:47:00.500
that's a crime but it's not illegal

1306
00:47:00.500 --> 00:47:02.030
to hire a day labor outside of

1307
00:47:02.030 --> 00:47:04.160
home depot and just drive around in

1308
00:47:04.160 --> 00:47:05.630
them with the car while they listened

1309
00:47:05.630 --> 00:47:07.580
in as that is legal technically you

1310
00:47:07.580 --> 00:47:08.990
just have to pay him for itself

1311
00:47:09.350 --> 00:47:11.060
with that that is it for this

1312
00:47:11.060 --> 00:47:13.220
week's episode guys will be back next

1313
00:47:13.220 --> 00:47:14.810
week with an all new episode thank

1314
00:47:14.810 --> 00:47:15.260
you again